big 3 auto bailout

[39mto39g]

Dems want to extend a 25 billion$ handout to GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Meanwhile Kia is expanding it's plants. Hummmmm. Maybe a few un patriotic Americans are buying Kia, Toyota, Nissan, Suzuki, Honda, etc instead of U.S. Auto make cars.
Ford GM and Chrysler deserve a little better than being under cut by the Jap market and misinformed Americans buying into the premises that Jap cars are somehow better. Maybe playing the movie Death march at Battain every day would give those some pause.
I am not in favor of bailing out any free market company, that being said, why would anyone buy a Jap car/truck and let an long time American company like Ford, GM, Chrysler go down the drain? One has to ask, WHY. OK, Toyota is a good car/truck, sooooo, GM, Ford, Dodge also make a very good Car/Truck. I guess then the reason is the Japs can make a better vehicle???????????????????????????????????WTF.
I would say , NOT.
Now I have no expectations on the people on this site to stop buying Toyota and magically buy Ford, GM, Chrysler, That is a opinion and a mindset. But when Ford, Chrysler and GM close their doors and all is left is Toyota. I will just walk.

Ron

[SuperScout]

I wonder how many parts of a Honda, Toyota, or other 'foreign' car in made in the United States, while at the same time wonder about the number of foreign made parts in Chevolets, Fords, etc. It is probably impossible to call either one wholly-made in the country of their original origin.

But the major problem with 'American made' autos is not the origin of the parts, but the labor unions that have practically destroyed a once proud industry. Let the auto makers fall where they may, and a group of white hats will buy them up and start producing a decent car that can either run on CNG, or get 75 mpg.

[39mto39g]

Honda, Toyota etc are selling in the U.S. because people buy them, If people stopped buying LLBean and started buying Jap clothing, LLBean would go under as well. Honda, Toyota parts and even their cars are made here, they provide jobs for the locals and all is well with them. However. If instead people would buy Ford, Chrysler, GM then that plant that sprung up would say Ford, GM or Chrysler on the front door and the Jap cars would be hurting. UAW is the biggest problem for Auto makers, no one in their right mind would open an auto plant in Michigan, instead they are being opened in "Right to work" states.
The feds need to make all states "right to work" states or all states UAW states, Make the playing field equal.
All government vehicles should be running on LNG or CNG. 75 miles per gallon with a gas engine is not going to happen, no matter what technology is used. A Gas engine needs from 12 to 15 parts of air for every part of fuel. It makes no differents how that is achieved, Through a carburetor, or Fuel injection, or any other means, if the fuel mixture is not in those parameters , it will not run. 100 MPG carburetors is just a myth.
The answer is get more oil out of our ground, build new refineries, and pour money into other flammable liquid research like Hydrogen, or alcohol.

Ron

[revwardoc]

Ron, you brought up a good point about the UAW. My brother-in-law used to work in the Framingham, MA GM factory back in the '70's. He was making almost $20/hr just for screwing the left tail light assembly on 3 out of every 4 cars (someone else down the line put in the 4th). $20/hr back then was incredibly good money for such menial work. He was also guaranteed 3 25min breaks a day, automatic cost of living raises, and he got 60% of his pay during the 2-month summer shutdown for "re-tooling". The cost of payroll drove up the price of US made cars and the quality was just above crap since the inspectors were also UAW members. If the UAW wants to keep itself going they're going to have to realize that their job is to build cars and strengthen the US economy and not just to make their own lives comfortable at the expense of the consumer.

[Seascamp]

What is quite apparent is that there is a huge mismatch between market needs and big three factory ability to meet the needs. And worse yet, it would take years if not decades to switch over processes to go from 1st generation manufacturing to 4th or 5th generation that is now the norm and standard practice. The only way to continue with 1st generation practices and stay viable is to go to a narrow market and dominate. Boeing and Harley Davidson are examples of organizations with 1st generation manufacturing processes and having ownership of a very specific market place.

First generation simply means labor intensive and head count rich. Later generations mix man and automation to which each is suited best. Of course later generations go at logger heads with basic labor union operating principals so up grading an older plant that has a labor union becomes mission impossible, it isn’t going to happen. Net of all that is 1st generation yields is a lot more cost intensive product that has a lot of intrinsic process variability; process quality issues. Later generations strive to get all the process variability out, and that is a new science all it’s own. The science applies to everything to putting labels on a pickle jar to building an automobile and without it, best go find a market nitch that will support the premium cost and obsolete manufacturing processes.

As an aside, during the last Boeing strike the local media did interviews with various union members. Some stated job titles, and zow, those job titles were long gone by the early 70’s so that placed Boeings shop floor practices and inventory control methods way back in the 40’s. If it works it works, but is really stone ax as to compared to how Boeing controls their outside vendors. They are tough and the vendors shop had best be 3rd generation or better, or no biz. So that is a go figure deal. An adder; manual line inspection or parts inspection is the major,major, bad in a modern manufacturing plant. The process has measurments built in and tollerance deviation stops come with the package. Seen it, an out of spec part and the process just stops, period. Manual overide takes very high authorization, very high.

Scamp

[39mto39g]

sea
As usual your post is very intellectual and confusing all in the same post.
1st, 2nd, 3rd, generation?
Henry Ford had the Chrysler Brothers working with him and bought them out. Mr. Chevrolet had a body shop with Fisher. and started the Fisher Body/Chasie shop which turned into GM.
Ford, Chrysler and GM have gone threw about 20 generations since, Model T, Model A,
32 coupe V8, Thunderbird, Corvette, Small block Chevy, 409, Hemi, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, cuda, Monte Carlo, Fairlane, Superbird, Talladega, Mach1, Z28, Barracuda, pinto, Vega, colt, ZX2, Tories, Cobra, Lightning, Shelby, Fusion, Cobalt, and many many more.
Honda has made, Civic, and ahhhhhh Accord I think.
The Generations of Ford Chrysler and GM are part of American history, and AMERICANS are throwing that history away . It's just sad. Apple pie will be replaced by sushi.

Ron

[SuperScout]

In another thread, I alluded to the 'niche marketing' that your post explained so thoroughly. If a revamped Detroit plant would devote itself to cranking out quality vehicles that were dual-fuel - gasoline and CNG - capable, while simultaneously creating a chain of CNG fuel stops, I think that a possible partial solution to the labor/product conundrum. Would I have the capital, I'd start a CNG station out on the highway, whle lobbying for more CNG vehicles to be produced. It could be the 'Amway' of the future!!

Hold the sushi, Ron, we ain't done yet!! Our Country First!

[Seascamp]

Ok Ron, think of it this way. What is designed and built is one thing and there are some classics, you know more about that than I do. The issue now is how it is built and exactly how it is built to the last lug nut put on. Therein is the make or brake issue. Example; the Brits are notably among the best performance car engineers to be found, but they cant manufacture a production line car worth diddly-beans. I was in the UK when Leland got nationalized due to Management Labor disputes, net of that nationalization move was a car that was so poorly manufactured and over priced that not even the dumbest Brit would buy one. These days, production cars in the UK are imports, and only specialty limited run vehicles are manufactured in the UK, but very pricy.

Big change in the last decade or so, and things have flipped over. Now the “How’ has totally eclipsed the ‘What” .

Ya, Detroit has all the talent and ability to be the best of the best and my first choice, but just cant get it together to go from idea to implementation to market with obsolete manufacturing practices and self-destructive acrimony between the big three and the UAW. And no one is clean, no one; all own mighty dirty-crusty butts. This isn’t political or pro or anti labor at all, just reality. Detroit is in deep guano and a infusion of Government money only means a different crash site, that’s all.

And Col. Brice, you know what I'm talking about, ya been there and seen it.

Scamp

[Seascamp]

Consider Ron, that Deming told the told Detroit four decades ago that the “how’ was the ballgame, they booted his ass as some kind of freak. These days the Deming award is the most prestigious industrial award one can receive in Japan, bar none.
Ay sus, they went form frog clicker cottage industry of this and that, industrial hodgepodgeof this and that to market domination by just paying attention to concepts and reality. I’m really hard pressed to figure as to how a Japanese auto plant product manufactured in the US is inferior to a Detroit plant product. I cant get there from here. I have no reason to pay a premium for a dysfunctional relationalship between the UAW and the big three when I can can get equal or better at a lower cost by not participating in the Detroit self-inflected mess.


Scamp

[39mto39g]

20 years ago Jap autos were better made than Ford, Chrysler or GM, That doesn’t hold true anymore. Although people still rag on Fords , what they say just doesn't hold water. My wife’s mustang has over 100,000 miles on it and all I have done is replace the breaks. I know people that have Hondas or Toyotas that after 100,000 miles , all they have done is replace the breaks. If a car is just a thing to get you from here to there and back then you can find a cheep Ford that is just as reliable as any Jap car.
I don't like the UAW at all, but if Americans stop buying Ford Chrysler and GM in favor of jap cars, it hurts a lot of people way more than the UAW.
I think Ford should move out of Michigan and to one of the "Right to work" states and leave the UAW in Michigan.
The 50 billion$ bailout will just be a delay for the inevitable. Which is, one of the big three must go down the drain,, (Chrysler). I don't think it should be given. In a free market society when a big company fails the company re structures, gets rid of people, down size, re tool, etc and then gets back in the business. If that company gets bailed out without those things happening, it just delays the process and cost taxpayers money.
Once again, all government vehicles, (City, County, State, and federal) should be running on Natural gas, then there would have to be refueling stations. and as people got used to the vehicles more would be brought into the general market. The problem with Natural gas powered vehicles is Accidents and vehicle fires. That could be solve relatively easy.
Same with Hydrogen powered vehicles.
Use what we go, drill more oil, build more refineries, and while we are using what we have, develop something better.

Ron

PS
I don't know why it wouldn't let me upload a picture a little boy peeing on a Chevy Bowtie