Whats wrong with this picture?

[MORTARDUDE]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews...l&siteid=50143 BETTER TO END UP IN COURT THAN GET KILLED Apr 2 2003




Andy McNab, Former SAS Man, On Tough Decision Faced By US Marines At Checkpoint


I FEEL sympathy for the civilians killed by American Marines at an army vehicle checkpoint (VCP).

But I equally feel sympathy for the troops that are having to make instant decisions that affect the lives of not only civilians but their own soldiers every day.

The accidental killing of civilians is unfortunately part of the horrendous, brutal nature of war.

But it is wrong to think these American soldiers are just a bunch of cowboys.

We have to accept the US has a very different approach in the way their army treats civilian populations. This is in part because they suffered heavy casualties during the Vietnam War.

Just like now, they not only fought the enemy but attempted to win the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese at the same time.

For the US Marines in particular this was a bitter and bloody experience. They took more casualties than in the whole of the Second World War.

Understandably this has affected the US mentality when dealing with non-American populations.

Even in the Balkans and Somalia, US forces contained themselves in compounds. And when on patrol it was in a very aggressive manner and of a short duration.

This was because they were trying to protect their lives rather than interact with the civilians to gain not only intelligence but also trust.

This compound mentality even exists with US forces stationed in the UK, where they are paid in dollars and spend it in their own camp exchanges.

British troops are far, far better at this type of soldiering.

This is not because we less aggressive than Americans.

IT'S because we understand that even the dangerous task of dressing down - replacing helmets with berets - when on the streets makes them more acceptable to the locals.

As civilians talk to the soldiers about their different coloured berets and camp badges, our troops forge relationships with the local people.

This not only yields tactical information but will also save the lives of our troops as the local people start to form opinions that the Brits might really be there to help them.

No Iraqi civilian is going to warm to a rifle barrel pointing at his face with an aggressive US soldier screaming at them from behind it. But all of this is at a strategic level. And millions of miles away from what is happening to the troops on the ground.

The coalition forces are not only confronting regular Iraqi troops as they fight towards Baghdad, but also Iraqi irregulars. This enemy is in civilian clothes, and is mixing among women and children for cover.

They then attack coalition forces before disappearing inside the mangled concrete of towns and behind the anonymity of women and children once more.

The moral and tactical confusion the coalition forces have to face in this type of warfare is enormous.

We cannot pass judgment on these hungry, tired and grime-covered troops from the comfort of our armchairs. The Marines that opened fire on the civilians had 12 days of combat that saw the majority of US casualties being the direct result of guerrilla attacks.

This includes the suicide bombing at a VCP just like theirs. We can't judge them after the event without the facts. We were not there, we didn't see what they saw, we don't know what they know.

The ground commander who ordered his troops to open fire on the blue Toyota as it drove towards his men had a difficult choice.

When the vehicle didn't stop when ordered, he told his troops to fire a warning shot. Maybe the shot was fired too late. Maybe the women and children didn't hear it as the engine revved and children screamed with fear as they tried to escape the horrors around them.

No matter what the facts are, there was a point during this quick and frantic series of events that the VCP commander had to make a split-second decision: destroy the vehicle or risk the lives of his soldiers.

I have had experience of those types of decisions and as far as I am concerned it is not a hard choice.

The commander had a responsibility to his troops to keep them alive. No matter how hard it was for him to order the destruction of the vehicle he did the right thing.

There is a saying among SAS soldiers: better to be judged by 12 people in a court, than to be carried by six in a church.

Next time it could be a Brit VCP commander that has to make that split second life or death decision.

[9th Inf. Doc.]

Staff,

What you continue to fail to realize is that the killing of women and children pisses us off AT LEAST as much as it does you.What is earning you all the flack is that you seem determined to blame U.S. soldiers for the situation that is being forced on them by the Iraqis.This is simply unfair,and is exactly what the Iraqis hoped to accomplish with this tactic.

[David]

[i]Originally posted by MORTARDUDE [/i}
There is a saying among SAS soldiers: better to be judged by 12 people in a court, than to be carried by six in a church.

Well said.

I noticed the British were wearing funny hats with red feathers or something sticking off of them yesterday as they went through towns. No body armor either. You could not pay me enough to do that in towns like those.

[philly]

I'm sure the British believe what they are doing is the right thing by attempting to embrace the Iraqi innocent. I personally believe they are placing themselves in grave danger. When the Iraqi soldiers learn of the unarmed Brits walking through their towns, they will sit in wait for the Brits. It would be a horrible slaughter of our allies.

Philly

[SuperScout]

Coming from an old, dried up, drug-crazed, homeless former baby-raper, er... that's wimmen raper, and baby-killer, let's just ignore this whiner from across the sea, who wants nothing more than to associate with real men, but obviously has some sexual dysfunction. We know who we are, and I for one don't care to communicate with mere snowball chunkers.
Scouts Out!!

[bbeil]

FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SEEN COMBAT ! My heart goes out to the troops that were at the check point and shot up the vehicle to later find out it was women and children . They will remember long after we have forgotten this war.

[MORTARDUDE]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...3-26484762.htm Reports suggest Iraqis forced to rush U.S. checkpoints
By Audrey Hudson
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


U.S. military officials said there is growing evidence that the seven Iraqi civilians killed by American soldiers at a checkpoint Monday were coerced into carrying out a suicide mission.
Brig. Gen. Vince Brooks, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command, acknowledged in his daily press briefing yesterday that several Muslim clerics are reporting that checkpoint charges by Iraqi civilians are being "done under duress."
"It's not just the coalition that's identifying that there are some problems here with the way the regime is doing its business and the way it's brutalizing the population," Gen. Brooks said.
There has not been a dramatic increase in suicide missions, "but we know that these tactics are used out there on the battlefield. This is a regime that is seeking tactical advantage by doing these types of things," Gen. Brooks said.
In Monday's incident, American soldiers fired upon a van as it approached a U.S. Army checkpoint near the town of Najaf, killing seven Iraqi women and children and wounding two others, according to U.S. Central Command. The U.S. troops fired warning shots into the air and then at the vehicle engine before firing on the passengers in the van.
The incident followed a suicide bombing Saturday, in which four U.S. soldiers were killed when a driver blew up his car at another checkpoint.
A respected Shi'ite Muslim cleric said suicide bombers ? including women and children ? are being forced into action by Saddam Hussein's forces, which are threatening to kill family members if Iraqi civilians do not cooperate.
Imam Sayyid Mohammed Barkir said 13 women and children were ordered by the Fedayeen Saddam paramilitary fighters to carry out a suicide mission Monday by charging the checkpoint.
"Those people, children and women, those were put in the bus by Saddam Hussein's forces and their men, being husbands and fathers, those were taken hostages. And the driver was ordered to speed up at the checkpoint and not stop so that they would be shot at," Imam Barkir told the Fox News Network.
U.S. Marines on Tuesday killed an Iraqi driver who drove his pickup toward another checkpoint near the town of Shatra and wounded the passenger. Although neither person was armed or in uniform, it was thought the truck carried a bomb.
Imam Barkir said the Saturday suicide bomber acted under threat that his family, including two infant children, a son and a daughter, would be killed if he did not run that checkpoint with a car bomb.
The Iraqi regime has praised the bomber as a martyr for Saddam. But he was in fact a reluctant victim, Imam Barkir said. His family was financially rewarded for the bombing, which Imam Barkir called hush money.
Retired Army Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely said incoming information suggests incidents such as those that occurred Monday were a "setup."
"That was a setup by the forces there, perhaps Fedayeen Saddam, trying to put those innocent people in the back and then making it look like, of course, the coalition forces killed all these innocent civilians intentionally," he said on the Fox News Channel program "Hannity & Colmes."
On the same program, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said the care that allied forces take to protect their forces and rescue prisoners of war is in sharp contrast to that of Iraqi leaders.
"Compare that with the savagery of Saddam's regime, which kills its own people, which pushes them into battles they can't win, which threatens to shoot them if they don't drive through checkpoints, which hangs women if they applaud or if they wave at American forces," said Mr. Gingrich.
"The difference between their brutality and our concern and our compassion is stunning. And yet we seem to have great difficulty in Europe and around the world drawing such a simple, such an obvious and such a 100 percent contrast in values," Mr. Gingrich said.

[reconeil]

Sorry I'm late aknowledging the great point you raised, regarding the death of non-combattants and/or innocent men, women and children.

After all, ONLY FOOLS, PROTESTORS OR POLITICOS (naturally only some) cannot, will not and/or simply refuse to see the difference between the perpetual murdering and torturing of civilians by a sicko regime,...and an unprecedentedly-low collateral damage and/or accidental death of civilians caused during warfare, fought solely to free and liberate The Iraqi People from such.

Besides, I never heard of any Americans ever hiding behind innocent men, women and children, such as The Cowardly Iraqi Regime SO PURPOSEFULLY DOES.

Hell, I honestly believe that ANYONE (also naturally honest) not seeing any difference between righteous-warriors and murderous cowards,...is a feeble-minded as it gets. No ifs, ands or buts.

Neil

[Seascamp]

I believe that it was Winston Churchill that said, ?The first casualty of war is the truth? and I believe we are seeing this in this tragic incident. I can access three broadcast news outlets and three network news outlets plus big name newspapers from Reno, San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego. Of all this, one newspaper and one network news outlet presented the facts as known and the rest offered up thinly disguised editorial opinion mixed with few facts and presented the result as factual news. I hardly believe any European news organization is doing anything different and I have zero faith that some aren?t just making stuff up as they go.

In my opinion it is not particular relevant what the people of Norway, Europe or the left leaning US believe about this incident. Fact is, only the beliefs of the Iraqi people matter right now. If they think we are setting up ambushes to gun down their children then we have a serious problem and a no win situation. But presently, this does not to appear to be the case. A very high ranking Iraqi Shiite Cleric and certainly no friend of the US, has made it absolutely clear that the shooting was a set up. He claims the driver?s family had been taken and upon threat of their death the driver was forced to run the blockade. I?m not going to take much an Islamic Cleric has to say to the bank but in this instance I have a choice of what he has to say or the bleating of a very levered and dishonest media. At the end of the day I?ll put my faith and trust in what the US Army inquiry turns up. That isn?t perfect but it?s head and shoulders above the international media kangaroo court going on.

Scamp

[Arrow]

Note to Arrow:

Things to do today...

Put staff on ignore...

do not open another one of his threads..

pray that someone somewhere will put him on eternal shit burning detail...