You be the judge

[PHO127]

It was during the month of December 1970 and we had moved from Cu Chi to down below Fire Base Blackhorse about 7 or 8 Ks. We had been getting notified of a lot of radio intercepts in an area about 8Ks to our northwest almost due west of Blackhorse.
I had flown some low level visual recons in the area and had a pretty good feeling that there was a buildup going or there was a NVA/VC unit in the general area. LTC Johnston, CO of the 1/27th and I talked about it and he decided to have a looksee. We put in 2 platoons to sweep the area. The 2nd day one of the platoons came into medium contact, and the 2nd platoon started to move to them to reinforce them, They came under heavy fire and took over 50% casualties within 30 minutes. It took the rest of the day to join the two platoons and late that afternoon we put in the whole company. We were able to get out the initial casualties but as the fighting went into the second day we were being hit by everything. There were some reinforced bunkers with MGs in them that would not let us move. I started working the area over with our 105s but they would not penetrate the bunkers. The bunkers were only about 50 to 60 yards in front and to our right flank. Every time we tried to move they pinned us and we could not get dust off ships in to get the wounded out. I asked for the closest 155 battery to come up and shoot the replot data from the 105s. It was a danger close mission with a first round Fire for effect. then adjust, I requested the 155s shoot once to a dump grid before FFE. The S3 of the 155s requested the infantry company commanders initials for approval and I gave them, He then came back requesting the BN COs initials for the mission and I gave them. He then refused to fire the mission due to high risk.
At that point I told him if I got out alive I was going to kill him. I started the 105s again and we were able to work our way out of the KZ. I don't remember how many exactly KIA we had but there were 28 total Casualties somewhere around 15 I think. I think that if he would have fired we could have taken out the bunkers and withdrawn with fewer casualties and saved some of the wounded that died because we could not get them out. Sure the DC mission was high risk but it was based on proven Artillery procedure. A replot is the exact coordinates that the last rounds actually hit. Even though I was changing calibers of guns it should have been good. We would have been within the killing radius of the 155s when they came in but on the edge and considered the risk acceptable. A week later Major Brown came to our fire base to read me my rights for a courts martial for threatening to kill him. I was reaching for my 45 when LTC Johnston stopped me and gave him 60 seconds to get off the fire base. We never saw him again. As with some of you I will always wonder if I could have done something different. Those men we lost haunt me.

[DMZ-LT]

Don't want you to get something in your eye bro , but in your heart , you know its true. As Andy said awhile ago and as Lorrie has said - It's not hard to see survivors guilt . Why we made it while others fell is beyond my grasp. I think some of the pain is because we are alive and have children and famalies that bring us joy and they will never know that joy, it all ended far from home in a blood splattered nightmare they were in. I try to be happy for them but sometime that wave of guilt covers me too. I think they would forgive us. Welcome to group.Where is Kieth ? Chaplin forward !

[grunt66]

You did everything you could , don't blame yourself. I wonder how that particular officer lives with himself ?

[39mto39g]

You did the rght thing. I wasn't there so I can't second guess you.
As a radio operator I was faced with this kind of dumb ass crap a few times. I can only say that maybe, continue to use your 105s, do what ever the Major wanted you to do so you could get 155s and when its over look for some Major. Anyone can arm chair this. Don't second guess your self, you did what you thought was best at the time. anyone that makes those decissions will second guess himself, but don't, Just blame the Major.


Ron

[Andy]

It's easier to look at such an incident objectively when it's not inside your own brain. You called in Arty (good call), then you asked for bigger guns. You risked a courts martial for your men. Someday you'll meet them again, in heaven or elsewhere, but you won't get any dirty looks. You see your not perfect. There's a few of us who fall into that category.
About 8 clicks south of Cu Chi you found bunkers and no doubt tunnel complexes. I'd swear we fought in the same place in '67. Charles had 30 cal machine guns set up in an acre, they were in tunnel openings with overhead cover and nice fields of fire. Gun Ships did nothing. The 155's did a lot better. Our CO. cried that night. I should have too but I'm afraid by December of that year, compassion was replaced with a cold hard heart. (Glad we both got our hearts back.)

Stay healthy, in All ways,
Andy

[phuloi]

We should all be thankful to Col Johnston for being there to back you up.The what ifs,shouldas,and couldas of those days can lead us to a very dark place.Don`t go there..You did the very best you could with what you had to work with in an extremely chaotic situation.I hope that sharing this will ease some of your pain

[ArtySgt]

The replot should have worked as you said. As a 105mm man I know just how frustrating it can be trying to take out a bunker with good over-head cover. Don't blame yourself, you did the best you could for the men out there. The Major owe's a debt he can never repay. Too bad you could'nt have got a plot on him.

[Seascamp]

We ran into similar situations and it was always the guy calling the situation that made the choice. Navy gunfire requires a lot of standoff, especially the 8" turret guns, and if the people in a jam were closer than minimum about all we could do was tell then to get your people down, salvo out. But the flip side of that was that bunkers didn?t survive the first salvo on target and we?d move the range in from the far side. Where the bunker was, only a crater, debris and some raspberry jam remained. Nine projectiles at 750 lbs each screaming in at 1800 ft./sec tends to reorganize the real estate quite a bit. Given what you shared it sounds like Major Brown was trading some lives for a dose of CYA paper. By da book and all that CS trash.

Scamp

[catman]

Pho - After seeing two of my guys hit a mine, and not being dusted -off for almost four hours, I sort of know the frustation you felt at needing support and not getting it.

Being an old artillery man myself, you always give the guys on the ground what they want. Explain the dangers, then fire the mission. Guess the only way I can see the reluctance on his part is if you were calling 175's or 8".

Trav

[frisco-kid]

This is a no-brainer, Bro. This asshole on the other end of the radio is, as it turned out, one of the parts of the equation that you had no control over. Don't beat yourself up over something that you couldn't control anyway. I, fortunately, learned this early on. I guess that's why I only take 20-30mgs. of Prozac per day instead of 80-90mgs. . For sure, like Griz said. You did everything possible, including threatening his dumb ass. It's on him, Bud. And I'll bet you dollars to piasters, your guys felt the same way.