The Passion of the Christ

[BLUEHAWK]

Mornin' Larry -

I'm not trying to persuade anybody to my way of thinking either friend... one of the best things about PF is its open forum of discussion where almost any kind of thought can be expressed and considered, and even learned from.

Several years ago I read the Derek Humphrey book (a small one, "Final Exit") which discusses suicide... they call it self-deliverance. It talks about the few ways that ARE available to achieve ending one's own life, most of them are quite unpleasant and often fail to accomplish much more than either permanent disabling injury or making a huge mess for other people to clean up, physically and emotionally. So, yes, I can sort of imagine circumstances in which a person might be justified in wanting to end their own life. The question becomes, how? When I met Kevorkian he was not, so far as I know, famous for assisted suicides... I just thought his paintings (pretty good Surrealist paintings actually) approached the topics of hypocrisy and morality lessons differently than most folks have the courage to attempt in public. It is not the business of a government to dictate to people when their own personal life should end, nor is it fair that the medical and nursing home profession forcibly deplete the life savings of elderly in order to artificially prolong life IF it is against the wishes of the person(s) paying the invoices. It cannot be had both ways, especially when it is the individual him/herself who has the say.

I disagree with it, but there are some who say that Jesus knowingly committed suicide, in effect. I don't happen to agree with that point of view, but some say so and I can see how that might be a logical conclusion in a certain sense.

While, for certain, I have no doubt whatever that Jesus lived... don't think I've EVER thought otherwise even for a second's time... I find his divinity more readily understandable when thinking of him as a human being. In fact, doing so helps me keep his life and work separate from, for example, the pantheon of Greek and Roman Gods... i.e. mythology. I don't think Jesus himself is a myth at all.

There is plenty of evidence about the Shroud of Turin which makes it utterly impossible for it to have been made in the miraculous manner tradition has claimed. Having said that, it must also be stated that I have worked most of my life in museums, where issues of authenticity are commonplace and daily, which colors my perception of such artifacts as reliquaries, for example. Nevertheless, for the Shroud to have been made so special in Christian history simply supports the high esteem people have for the man whose face is said to be on it, and that can only be good. His teachings were unique, and I do my best to follow his word, HIS word, every day all day.

I haven't yet read the book(s) you mentioned, but have read some of like kind and found them fascinating, even somewhat believable at times. One of the most interesting was a big fat book about the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, written right when they were found by the people who were put in charge of deciphering them.

I suppose, in the end, I tend to be a bit more like Martin Luther, though am not a Lutheran. I simply regard the LIFE of Jesus as being far more important than his death. But, I see his manner of death as his own inevitable sacrifice, almost in the way any warrior commits himself to battle in the certain knowledge he may never see another day. There were many ways the Romans could have chosen to end Jesus' life, so why they insisted upon crucifixion for a man who had done nothing more than use words to challenge prevailing hypocrisy and communicate what he believed pretty much says more about their cruel insanity than anything else. The fact that his teachings also challenged the San Hedron, and insisted that his own religious people adhere to the admonitions of God as Jesus understood him to be, is not especially surprising... mass hysteria is relatively easily incited (as we learned recently from the Nazis and Taliban).

Jesus, I believe, had foreknowledge of his destiny, and spared no effort to reveal or explain that to anyone who would listen. I have no idea why many people are so resistant to thinking of Jesus as a human being, nor why it is so necessary to deny his (and the Bible's) factual history. But, maybe that is simply what happens with ALL of history... there are always many sides or tellers/reporters who saw the same thing and it meant something totally different to each of them. To follow Jesus' OWN teachings is not easy, which is why so many of us are lead astray by superfluous quasi-religious demands having nothing at all to do with what he himself said and did.

So, I would just rather glorify his life, and weep for his manner of dying... hoping that if it were my choice to make today, I would not reject and condemn a prophet among us.

[MORTARDUDE]

Mike :

Try to at least look at the book, even if you don't buy it. I believe you will understand my point of view a lot better. My son is reading it now. I will send it to you when I get it back if you like...

{..........}
"There is plenty of evidence about the Shroud of Turin which makes it utterly impossible for it to have been made in the miraculous manner tradition has claimed. Having said that, it must also be stated that I have worked most of my life in museums, where issues of authenticity are commonplace and daily, which colors my perception of such artifacts as reliquaries, for example. Nevertheless, for the Shroud to have been made so special in Christian history simply supports the high esteem people have for the man whose face is said to be on it, and that can only be good. His teachings were unique, and I do my best to follow his word, HIS word, every day all day.
{.....}

Larry

[BLUEHAWK]

Roger, wilco

[39mto39g]

You wrote "Ron! In your life, do you ever recall any such identical phenomenon as this? "
Yes, The Beatles, on Ed Sulivan show.

Ron

[BLUEHAWK]

Oops, got me there... forgot all about those folks.