Moot point??????

"Have you forgotten
When the towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside
Going through a liveing hell."

My wife had two cousins-twin young ladies-in one of those towers.They finally found the remains,one hand from each,squished into the same puddle.

About 20 miles,near as I can figure,from where I'm sitting civilians were killed and injured when a terrorist cut the throat of a bussdriver when he refused to do as the terrorist instructed.

Far as I'm concerned,this war is about two things:

1.Defense of this Nation's civilian population following determined unprovocated attacks on that population.
2.Pay back.

WMA's-or lack thereof-is but a part of #1 above.
I believe that our young'uns in the military are preforming a vital mission,are doing so in spectacular fashion,and deserve our support and appriciation.

[MORTARDUDE]

Hal :

No one has proven to me that Saddam had even the slightest bit to do with 9/11. It is all about the oil and the money. That is just my opinion. I am truly sorry for your wife's loss. No I haven't forgotten about 9/11/2001. But I have done a lot of research. I now know things about it that the news media seems to ignore.
As our experience in South East Asia should have taught us, the population in Iraq does not want us there. The sooner we are not an occupying Army, the better off everyone will be. All this is IMHO.

Larry

P.S. : Andrew Card is an intellectual troglodyte, not me. LOL

[MORTARDUDE]

Hal :

Forgot to mention something about terrorists. Have you read any of the books by Richard Marchinko AKA "The Rogue Warrior" ?
I tnink there about 12 of them. They are a great read. I have all of them, plus some extras. PM me your address and you can have the duplicates. Anyway, his job as a Navy Seal was to infiltrate military installations and point out how they are vulnulerable. It is all laid out in his books. Sort of a primer for terrorists. My point is that this country is wide open.

Larry

[Arrow]

Hal,

I'm really sad to hear that news. Please tell your family that there are people all over this country and right here in this household that have not forgotten. Not for a minute. It breaks my heart to think on the horror your family and others went through and are still going through.

It seems to me that others do more speculating in regard to motives than dealing with facts. The fact is there was an intelligence failure regarding WMD's. That fact has been admitted to. The speculation is that our Presidentdeliberately misled the American people and putour troops in harms way for the sake of dollars.

I understand that theterm weapons of mass destruction does not include a culture of fear as most people would interpret the term. We went in looking for one thing based on what nowhas beenadmitted toas beingbad intelligence. We found evidence of a regime of terror beyond human comprehension.

My opinions about this war are formulated now and will be in the future by what the boots on the ground have to say about itand what they have to say about theirPresidentnow and in the future. From what I hear and read for the most part we have some mighty proud troops that feel that they are the good guys. There for the purpose of doing away with a culture of fear and giving the people of Iraq a chance to breathe free. As my daughter said to me the other night after watching an interview of some young troops. They are the best of the best.My opinion also. The bestthis generation has to offer.

I have every confidence that these young men and women are intelligent enough to let us old folks know if their purpose is a failure, a setup. Thatthey are not accomplishing the purpose they believe they are there for and we need to get out.They will let us know what they need from us. We raised avery sophisticated, educated and vocal generation of young men and women.

There have been many comments from the Troops that this is not Vietnam and there is no comparison. Remember the saying "If you weren't there you don't know" it seems to apply here. It's my thought as it is yoursand many others with us Halto trust them and believe their judgement about this war and their President.

Arrow>>>>>>>

[Gimpy]

I, as well am so sorry for yours and your wifes loss. It was a terrible tragedy and we all in this country still remember and are full of sorrow for your family and all who lost loved ones and friends in that disaster. WE WILL NOT FORGET. And, I feel the same as Lil Sparrow, MortarDude and others do with regards to the support and appreciation of a job well done by our troops in the field, wherever they have to go.

However, that's where my "allegiance" with this administrations policy stops.

What Bush and his administration have done is WRONG.......plain & simple!

Americans supported the war in Iraq not because Saddam Hussein was an evil dictator--we had known that for many years--but because President Bush had made the case that Saddam might hand off weapons of mass destruction to his terrorist allies to wreak havoc on the United States. As of this date, there appears to be no evidence that Saddam had either weapons of mass destruction or significant ties to terrorist groups like al Qaeda. Yet the belief that Saddam posed an imminent threat to the United States amounted to a theological conviction within the administration, a conviction successfully sold to the American public.

So it's fair to ask: Where did this faith come from?

According to Bob Woodward's book Bush at War, immediately after 9/11 Paul Wolfowitz told the cabinet: "There was a 10 to 50 per cent chance Saddam was involved." A few days later, President Bush told his top aides: "I believe that Iraq was involved, but I'm not going to strike them now." However, the most comprehensive criminal investigation in history--involving chasing down 500,000 leads and interviewing 175,000 people--has turned up no evidence of Iraq's involvement, while the occupation of Iraq by a substantial American army has also uncovered no such link.

Moreover, the U.S. State Department's counter terrorism office, which every year releases an authoritative survey of global terrorism, stated in its 2000 report: "[Iraq] has not attempted an anti-western attack since its failed attempt to assassinate former President Bush in 1993 in Kuwait." In other words, by 9/11, Saddam's regime had not engaged in anti-American terrorism for almost a decade.

Ideas do not appear out of nowhere, so how is it that key members of the Bush administration believed that Iraq had been so deeply involved in terrorism directed at U.S. targets for many years? For that we must turn to a recent publication: Study of Revenge, by Mylroies, which surmises that Iraq was behind the first Trade Center attack, a theory that is nonsense, as hundreds of national security and law enforcement professionals combed through the evidence of the '93 bombing, certainly looking, amongst other things, for such a connection, and found no evidence.

Here is the deal. We attacked Iraq because the President told us that Iraq was a imminent threat to our nations safety. Iraq had Chemical, Biological, and were real close to having Nuclear weapons. Either we attacked them or chances were good that they would attack us.

Congress bought it as did the majority of Americans. It is now reported that 10,000 innocent Iraqi civilians (women and children included) have been killed along with an estimate of 30,000 Iraqi soldiers.

America has had over 400 troops killed and over 1800 have been wounded, with many losing limbs or their sight.

All of this because President Bush couldn't wait any longer to attack. Most of the world wanted to give United Nation's weapons inspections more time. Iraq gave a 12,000 page report stating that they didn't have any weapons of mass destruction and all the weapons they had before were destroyed. Bush and his administration blew that report off as lies. Well today it looks like Iraq was telling the truth.

After three months of looking all over Iraq for Weapons of Mass Destruction with 1200 other people, David Kay gave his report to our government just over a month ago. One thing we do know for sure is that after spending 300 million dollars, he found no weapons.

Remember the tons of biological weapons and the thousands of liters of chemical weapons that the Bush administration told the world about? Where the hell are they??When Bush wanted to start this war he would say anything. Remember Mushroom Clouds over American cities? How about Dick Cheney describing Iraq's nuclear program as already reconstituted?

President Bush did get some things done though. He got, Major No-bid Contracts for his friends and supporters and they were able to make billions off of the American tax payer.

The President has convinced Congress that as long as we are there (Iraq) we might as well stay and pour hundreds of billions more into that country, even though we are having about one soldier killed and ten wounded every day. This is too great of an opportunity for American Corporations to make a lot of money. Never mind that many of those getting these contracts no longer have their headquarters in the United States and therefore pay no taxes. They still pour money into political campaigns. See it is all working our according to the plan, and David Kays' report changes nothing.

So American Soldiers will continue to be killed and terribly wounded, but that is OK, because no one of importance has any kids over there. And gosh, there is just so much money to make. So thank you President Bush, for explaining to the American people how finding no weapons proves we were right in attacking Iraq.

PS------------Super, like Larry said."Andrew Card is an intellectual troglodyte, not me. LOL"

PPS..............Sparrow..........we had evidence that Sadams "regime" was "evil beyond all human comprehension" well before even the FIRST Gulf War. Hell, we got photos AND documents to PROVE that Donald Rumsfeld (when working for Ronnie Reagen at the defense department in the 1980's) was helping Sadam procure weapons (including chemical agents) that killed hundreds of thousands of Iranians as WELL as his own citizens! Of course it was OK then though........cause he was helping US to kick the Iranians ass for us as "payback" for the hostage crisis in 1979 and 1980!

[Arrow]

Steve,

Silence in regard to human rights violations is never justified. We made a huge mistake in putting our confidence in evil personified.

Again my first thought in regard to what is happening in Iraq at this time is to trust the Troops on the ground in their judgement of the President they serve under and the mission they are called upon to carry out.

Arrow>>>>>

[Keith_Hixson]

Anyone who likes war is nuts. As General Grant said, "War is Hell" No one in their right mind would enjoy war (Patton wasn't in his right mind - a great General but some problems).

However, the radical Muslim threat is very real. Arguments against the war with Iraq certainly have some validity as the arguments for the war with Iraq. I have a good friend of Serbian heritage. His father who came from Serbia (Yugoslavia) has a hatred for the Muslims which goes back a 1,000 years. Bob would tell you that the best thing to do is to rid the world of all the Muslims. His belief is that the Muslims will keep pounding away at the West until they have conquered the Whole world and we all will be speaking Arabic and bowing to the East or Dead. I believe Bob is a little radical. I do believe that Saddam and Bin Laden had / have no respect for the West and negoiating. Just how these two actions (Iraq and Afghanistan) will slow down the attacks against America and the West won't truly be realized for many years to come when Historians review the facts.

IN both countries we know there were serious human rights violations. Just what is America's responsibilities towards human rights around the world? I have always been surprised that the Women's Liberation movement didn't join the Army in the fight against the Taliban. The way they treated women was / is deplorable.

I have a belief from my readings, studies, a visit to a Muslim country, and my friend Bob that at sometime and someplace we will have to take a stand against the radical Muslim and it will be all out war. I suppose the question is: on our terms or their terms?

I certainly don't want war. I believe the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq are just the tip of the ice berg before its over. As more and more Muslims immigrate to the USA we are inviting more and more terrorism right here in North America.

Someday, and Sometime a real stand must be taken. And, when it is, it will be hell.

Keith

[MORTARDUDE]

I don't think Gen Grant said "War is hell".


" It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell." -- William Tecumseh Sherman

[Seascamp]

I have and had a lot of trepidation about the Iraq situation from the moment jump street was crossed and all the reasons why are now playing out as if in a sad and tragic matinee. I believe exactly like Keith, to the letter and word. There will be a battle with the radical Islamic hordes and it?s looking more and more everyday that, ?Apocalypse Now? will be on their terms, time and place, not ours, just as in 9/11. The grim reality is that we do not have the political unity, resolve or survivor instinct to even agree on the threat let alone defend ourselves or anyone else for that matter. As I listen to the politicos yammer away, level their accusations, levered half-truths and wholesale fabrications I get that hollow feeling of d?j? vu. And then I see what the Liberal media is doing with creating excrement without a living breathing organism, I just have to holler out ?Good Morning Vietnam , long time no frigging see?. So the next shoe to drop is that we will force ourselves to withdraw from Iraq, abandon commitments and a few million people will be slaughtered within weeks if not days. At that instant we might as well consider the Radical Islamic Jihad to be supercharged, enabled, embolden on a mission, and the battle ground then becomes the USA, by definition.

Our media and politicos of the VN era don?t want to talk about this and try to sweep it under the carpet as if it never happened. But in fact when the US was no more than hull down on the horizon and outward bound from SEA, one third of the Cambodian population was beaten to death with lead filled pipes and a still unknown and uncalculated number of Vietnamese were ruthlessly slaughtered in similar fashion. Two months ago one of the Hollywood Liberal elites was on TV claiming that there was no holocaust in Cambodia and its all ?Conservative propaganda?. I triple dog dare that supposed individual to go to Phnom Penh and visit the holocaust museum and then tell the Cambodian people it never happened, triple dog dare. But I suppose it?s a lot safer and easier to turn on the tinsel town charm and deceive the US viewing public.

That?s the long and short of it. We have no business doing things that we do not have the unity, resolve and political agreement to complete but alas, here we are again, one more time. D?j? vu all over again and I suppose it won?t be long before returning Iraq Vets will be spat upon, as usual.

Scamp

[Keith_Hixson]

Right War,

You are correct. Not bad for my age.

Keith