More--Gonna PO a lot of you!!

[Arrow]

Gimpy...

Like you I have always asked the hard questions of the decision makers in this country. And I'm not inclined to take the easy quick answer. I also have seen more than myshare of "sons of bitches"to quote Jimmy Buffett. Of course we should question. I just believe we can do more good and less harm to those in harms way if we go about it behind the scenes. The lessons of Vietnam, the Tet Offensive, and the protest of 68 have not been lost on me. Some say that those open protest ended the war. But others that I admire and agree with say they just got more people killed.I know that you know there is a responsibilty that comes with that right to protest openly.Andto my way of thinking that responsibilty weighs heaviest on thosethatcarry thegreater burdenie our military and ex military and their families.I know this is not a military base but we have to remember thatthis site is accessedall over the world by our friends and foes alike and by our military members.

That's my say..thanks for listening and thank you for your response...

And thank you for your service to this country...

Arrow>>>>>>>

[judyvillecco]

Little sparrow I was not one of those protesters during the Vietnam war and I know what you mean about how some of those protesters got some of our own killed but I disagree that this war heaven forbid is the same as that one or that we should keep silent because we have troops over in harms way. i for one have a son in law in harms way that I didn't want to go again for this war and if my protests will get him home so be it. I will not go along with protracted deployments that have kept him away from his children ad nauseum for the likes of George Bush who never lived that way. he may be my commander in Chief but I claim the right to protest because I too answered the call and volunteered and lost my share as well and it is because of Vietnam I protest as long as I have air. No more political wars. I support my troops 100% but because I am still free I have the right to protest my governments actions. I am not in Iran. Please also respect that it is because of free debate of our governments actions that we are free even in so called war. This is a war that is declared to go on and on like Vietnam until whenever. i don't want my 7 grandsons fighting it! Sorry but i don't!

[catman]

razz...I never said that the war was over or ment to insinuate that it was. What I was saying is the argument is as old and stale as yesterdays beer. Yeah GW went to war on the WMD ticket. So far we have not had much luck finding them. We have only recovered two portable chem/bio labs and no agents.

Well a few years back, I received a nice little letter from the folks up at DA that said I, along with my unit and many units around us had been exposed to chemical and biological weapons at a place in south central Iraq when US Army Engineers blew up an Iraqi weapons bunker. In fact, just last week, they released new figures of possible as many as 350,000 troops were exposed. And in spite of that all the self righteous arm chair generals around this country keep screaming what WMD we don't see any. If any of you think for a half a second that Hussein did not know the invasion was coming and hid or gave away all of the weapons than the lot of you are definitely turning a blind eye.

Hell look at the war in 91. Hussein would launch a plane and we would knock it out of the sky. So what does he do, send the remaining Air Force to Iran. A country with which he fought a very bitter war for eight years. Also a country that he routinely used chemical weapons against. Do you think for a minute that they would not also take his chemical and biological weapons?

I have a very hard time believing that anyone would continue to deny the evidence because they do not like the policies of the current leaders. At least not on a issue as important as this. To quote a phase my father used quite often "What color is the sky in your world"

Trav

[HARDCORE]

"Well stated ladies and gents!"

"IN NO WAY" does sanely disagreeing with the actions and/or decisions of our elected government detract from the safety of our troops. It is a duty, and not only a right of citizens, ex military included, to protest that which they consider to be in error! This is (after all) a government of, by and for the people!

I agree that the kind of protests that took place during the Vietnam War, and the Gulf Wars were inherently harmful, but blind obedience to that which one abhors (and even fought to guard against), can also be a harmful thing I think!

At least part of the reason for most wars that we have been engaged in, is to preserve certain freedoms! Freedoms that men and women have fought for, throughout our two and a quarter centuries of existence! "This includes the freedom to have a contrary opinion!" That in fact, is what this site (at least partially) is all about, do you not agree!

Maybe I missed something, but most of what I have read here is not aimed at causing problems for our magnificent troops! Nor is this site (in my opinion) geared to habitually pat the backs of selected political types, even when we disagree with their policies or rhetoric!

"As for attempting to opine behind the scenes alone, this silent verbosity often promotes naught but a status quo, good or bad!" So I guess that the best way to describe my feelings on this matter is quote people far wiser than I!

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves therefore are its only safe depositories!" (Tom Jefferson-1784)

"I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical!" (Tom Jefferson-1787)


"What country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance!" (Tom Jefferson-1787)

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it!" (Abraham Lincoln-1861)

"If limits upon free speech and thought (within reason) can be levied as any government deems fit, then those limits will be constantly amended and expanded upon at the command and at the whim of whatever political power is presently in control!" (Hardcore-2003)
-------------------------------------------------------
Again, no one (that I can see here-in) is attempting to give aid and comfort to the enemies of our great nation. This is not generally the intention of those who offer up their opinions on this site!

To utilize the right to verbally disagree is, I feel, no more harmful than bowing constantly to the dictates of that which one feels to be in error! Many a (once) great nation, after all, has been eroded when the unquestioned mandates of the one (or the few), transcends the will of the many!

Again (redundantly so), no one is attempting to decry the magnificent efforts of our military or our government by sounding off! "Quite to the contrary in fact!" Nor is anyone wantonly hurting same by offering up their opinion!

Most here would lay down their lives for this country, and many have in the past been in that position! But not to offer one's opinion, or voice one's concerns (again, within reason), is to demean what this (and every other) generation of American has worked, fought, sweated, and even died to preserve!

I agree, there is a sometimes finite line between willful damage and Constitutionally Guaranteed redress, but in my opinion, no one here-in is attempting to give an edge, psychological or otherwise, to the enemies of liberty and democracy! "That can only be done through silence, as in a democracy, silence is not golden!!"

Not to voice one's opinion (again within sane limits), is also an enemy of democracy! And I am sure that there are those (no one in particular targeted here), who would love to dictate these parameters for one vested reason or another! But this will never come to pass (I Hope)?!
------------------------------------------------------
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they can not alter the state of facts and evidence!" (John Adams-1770)

"As the happiness of the people is the sole end of government, so the consent of the people is the only foundation of it!" (John Adams-1774)

VERITAS

[judyvillecco]

Well Trav you are one of the few the DA is admitting to that was exposed. Many they are not admiting to so you are one of the fortunates. My friend with his hair off in the post office is one they deny anything happened to. I guess it depends who you are and where you are whether they admit it or not. There is no consistency. Do you think they will admit it on everyone? I don't for one minute and what color is your sky? i stopped believing everything my government said at Fort Dix new Jersey back in 1976.

As for Harcore's comments I can only say Amen! no intent to hurt troops on my part anyways.

[Arrow]

Fall back and fire away. But before you do please note: that I did not say that you should not have the discussion. Have it until hell freezes over. I am just of the opinion that military and ex-military in a time of war should air their differencesand work for change if they see it is necessary behind the scenes.

HC....no where did I call for blind obedience or silence...or say anyone should not have a contary opinion....nor didI say that it is the intent of anyone on this board to harm anyone.I do understand your point of view. And of course mine is not the most popular I didn't expect it would be. It wasn't the politically correct opinion inthe sixtiesand it isn't now.

Arrow>>>>>>>>>>

[1IDVET]

[quote]Originally posted by judyvillecco Well Trav you are one of the few the DA is admitting to that was exposed. Many they are not admiting to so you are one of the fortunates.
QUOTE]

I fail to see how that is fortunate.
Please, enlighten me.

[blues clues]

Trav the color of the sky in my world is purple with a touch of red. lol. I for one have never said that the mad man of Bagdad didn't have any cim's or the other things, and yes use these ugly thing on his very own people for that he should rot in hell. And I'm glad the DA has admitted to your exposer,they are just now admitting to some of our AO like I told the doctors at the VA hell I though they were on our side.
I remember telling my wife after the Gulf 1 the whole country is standing with these guy right now but just wait untill these same guy's go to the VA for anything that happen to them in the war,I'm sorry but as you guy found out the country or I should say the government as a whole don't want anything to do with you. If you want anything from the VA you will have to fight harder than you every did in Iraq.that's not just the way I see it that is fact.
After saying all that what I'm trying to say is there is 170 plus dead in this war and if these troops died for a lie then their familys shoud be told. If they died because as GWB said in a speech before the war that and I quot" he tried to kill my daddy didn't he."unquot.then the people have the right to know that also.


razz

[HARDCORE]

little sparrow

If you mistakenly perceive that your views are unpopular, they are your views, appreciated, and in my opinion, welcomed.

Granted, we all don't march to the same drummer, and that is what makes this site worth while!

VERITAS

[HARDCORE]

blues clues & 1IDVET ETC-

"May God have mercy on the VA", for in my opinion, they are going to need all of the help that they can muster!

This organization, one that prides itself upon (what it terms as) "Adversarial Paternalism", has (unfortunately) proven in far too many instances, that its agenda is "SELF", its goals are "SELF", and it's motivation is "SELF!" (opinion)

The problems that many returning vets have faced at the front portal of the Veterans Administration, reminds me of that sign over the River Styx - "Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter Here!"

Denial on their part (VA) is as rampant as that purveyed by an back-alley alcoholic. And as it is with all such self- created neo-gods, worship is required before the gates of redemption are flung wide! "This is not the way that it should be, or even has to be, it is just the way that it is! (opinion)

For far too many veterans, the "VA Procedure" has indeed become "The Second Front!" This "MUST" change, or "ANY" administration that promoted, supports, or covers-up for this double-dealing will indeed lose votes! "A fact that they tend to ignore!"

Unfortunately, some within government do indeed need worship and/or adoration to survive. This too, is not the way that it was meant to be, just the way that it is! When, however, any entity feels itself above the very laws and mandated that it was created to defend and "SERVE", then it is time to replace that entity, within the law of course!

Did not Abraham Lincoln write: "This country with its institutions belongs to the people that inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their Constitutional right of amending it, etc. (Lincoln's words, not mine!)

This diatribe, is not aimed at any single political party or individual, but if something don't work, it must be fixed or cast aside in favor of that which does! If the VA, and those who cover for it in government, does not work the way that it should, then no amount of indignation can (or will) replace affirmative action, ie- "FIX (not alibi for) the damned thing!"

Granted again, the VA is a needed commodity, but then so is air and water! It is unfortunate, however, that some things which are sorely needed, are so often quickly polluted! Not by all mind you, but then - how many bad apples does it take?!

"There are, however, remedies to all things, and like that alcoholic, the time has come for the VA to dry out and take the cure!!" (opinion)

VERITAS