Sybullisms again.

From: Patrick T. (p.t.hughes)
Subject: Sybullisms-Criminal Behaviour
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Date: 2000/07/23


> Wrong again Dino. You've been repeatedly asked for proof and
>every time you've waffled out.
>
> Prove this:
>
>In article <812a95$2kpc@drn.newsguy.com>, dino
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Mr. Gittinger
>> I saw one enemy soldier beaten in the head with an entrenching tool until his
>> skull was crushed: I saw a Vietnamese man beaten with a bamboo pole until he
>> lay on the ground either dead or unconcious - I never saw him get up: I saw an
>> enemy soldier who had willingly surrendered, beaten unconscious by the fists of
>> an American soldier: I saw an enemy POW shot in the head 30 times with his own
>>weapon: I saw an enemy soldier shot with a .45 cal. pistol until the magazine
>>was empty: I saw an enemy soldier shot through the heart at point blank range
>>with a M-16 rifle (less that two feet away): I saw 15 inocent civilians shot,
>> while our company commander refused medical assistance: I witnessed an air
>> assault on a village full of civilians which were seriously injured by the
>> rockets of the gun ships (this was in a village and there was no enemy there):
>> I witnessed soldiers who kept ears for souveniers: I witnessed an unprovoked
>> firing on a civilian village by an entire platoon. I witnessed shooting an
>> elderly woman as she was fleeing for safety: I was ordered to kill civilians by
>> an officer: I witnessed a sergeant take a watch from an American KIA for his own
>> use: I overheard the discussions of two soldiers who were bragging about how
>> many wedding bands they had taken off American KIAs: Two soldiers told me in
>> the field that they raped a woman as we swept through a village: I witnessed
>> and participated in the killing of water buffalo, pigs, and chickens: I
>> witnessed and participated in the burning of hootches: I witnessed the
>> wholesale killing of wounded enemy soldiers following a firefight: I'll
>> probably recall more after I finish typing this.
>> There were plenty of more things that I did not personally witness but was told
>>to me by guys that I knew very well and had never lied to me. They continue to
>> this day to tell me the exact same stories. I believe them.
>>
>> These things all occured in three seperate Army units, so do I believe that
>> these things did not occur in other units? Hardly. When I was posting as
>> troopervet, I received plenty of e-mail from other guys who praised me for
>> telling it the way it was. In fact I received as much, if not more, positive
>> e-mail than I did flames from awv. If it hadn't have been for their
>>encouragement, I would have quit. I find it hard to believe that other combat
>> vets came home and did not witness anything and I find it even harder to believe
>> that combat vets came home and did not hear of such things. Pass it off as
>> rumor if you like, but I found that guys in the field did not lie about such
>> things and their stories were often corraborated by others. Ten years later
>> while sitting at Joe's Bar & Grill after drinking a couple of six packs, the war
>> stories becomes more embellished, but not at the time it happened.
>>
>> dino
>>ps We had made some sort of truce as I recall, but I see you cannot hold your
>> tongue. I didn't think you to be an honorable man - thank you for proving me
>> right.
>
> We're still awaiting your proof. My offer still stands to turn
>it over to the USARPAC JAG.
>
> -T. H. Rau
************************************************** **************************
(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following
newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam)
> In article <8232t7$1dg4@drn.newsguy.com>, dino says...
> >
> >In article , laidback@lava.net
> >says...
> >>
> >> Send me the facts that you have, and I will personally turn them over
> >>to the USARPAC JAG.
> >
> >Please be specific. I mentioned several things. Which particular ones do you
> >want to know about? Furthermore, this will be private conversation between you
> >and I. You must agree to not discuss it with anyone on this ng and never post
> >anything that I write to you about this subject on this ng. If this is not
> >acceptable, then do not e-mail me.
> >
> >> -T. H. Rau
************************************************** **************************


troopervet
troopervet@yahoo.com

On Tue, 26 Sep 2003 01:57:35 -0400, Mat Beckman
wrote:

Your history books and your library books were not written by anyone I
witnessed in Vietnam.

I believe in the Rules of Engagement as defined by United States
Marine Corps Officers and their proper Chain of Command. If one of
those officers pointed to me and said shoot that person. I would have
shot them. I very seldom missed, so you could say someone would be
laying on the ground, most certainly dead if I had clear shot because
we never to my knowledge shot to impress or to wound, or to "stop"
with fancy definitions of what that may mean. We shot to kill them
dead. They were an enemy as defined by my government and chain of
command. I did not act to maybe write a book someday, but to come
home with all of my fellow Marines by my side. My Officers had the
same belief I had as did all Marines in combat. Period.

I do not dispute that. But as I say, I believed in my officers. If
they would have been wrong, I would have paid the piper just like
every Marine I know because we do not take disobeying our officers in
a combat environment lightly. If someone doesn't believe that, that
is their choice.

Dino believes in nothing. That is why every single vet on this
newsgroup who has been in similiar circumstances calls him for what he
is, a liar on good days but mostly a war criminal who should turn
himself in. That is my statement on this issue.

You are quite free to believe what you want, millions of people do
believe that is what we did over there, but most of them weren't
there, and the ones that were have not yet proven to me they witnessed
what they said they witnessed for any purpose other than to feed the
frenzy that we slaughtered innocent people for fun. The ones that got
caught stood for courts martials. That is exactly what we all believe
(except for Dino) should have happened. It is unfortunate they did not
get at least 20 years if they were convicted. Some of them, like
Callie should have been shot. I would be hard pressed to find too many
people in this newsgroup that disagree with that assessment.


>Patrick,
>What's the problem? Do you deny these things happen in war? Get real.
>This agrees with my history books and my university library books. Many
>American servicemen have given similar accounts (would you like a reference?).
>I believe Mr. Shultiz tells the truth. Pick just one statement you think
>is false. How about the first one.
>
>>>>I saw one enemy soldier beaten in the head with an entrenching tool until his
>>>>skull was crushed:
>
>Why don't you believe that? BFD, it was war.
>
> I saw a Vietnamese man beaten with a bamboo pole until he
>>>>lay on the ground either dead or unconcious - I never saw him get up: I saw an
>>>>enemy soldier who had willingly surrendered, beaten unconscious by the fists of
>>>>an American soldier: I saw an enemy POW shot in the head 30 times with his own
>>>>weapon: I saw an enemy soldier shot with a .45 cal. pistol until the magazine
>>>>was empty: I saw an enemy soldier shot through the heart at point blank range
>>>>with a M-16 rifle (less that two feet away): I saw 15 inocent civilians shot,
>>>>while our company commander refused medical assistance: I witnessed an air
>>>>assault on a village full of civilians which were seriously injured by the
>>>>rockets of the gun ships (this was in a village and there was no enemy there):
>>>>I witnessed soldiers who kept ears for souveniers: I witnessed an unprovoked
>>>>firing on a civilian village by an entire platoon. I witnessed shooting an
>>>>elderly woman as she was fleeing for safety: I was ordered to kill civilians by
>>>>an officer: I witnessed a sergeant take a watch from an American KIA for his own
>>>>use: I overheard the discussions of two soldiers who were bragging about how
>>>>many wedding bands they had taken off American KIAs: Two soldiers told me in
>>>>the field that they raped a woman as we swept through a village: I witnessed
>>>>and participated in the killing of water buffalo, pigs, and chickens: I
>>>>witnessed and participated in the burning of hootches: I witnessed the
>>>>wholesale killing of wounded enemy soldiers following a firefight: I'll
>>>>probably recall more after I finish typing this.
>>>>There were plenty of more things that I did not personally witness but was told
>>>>to me by guys that I knew very well and had never lied to me. They continue to
>>>>this day to tell me the exact same stories. I believe them.
>>>>
>>>>These things all occured in three seperate Army units, so do I believe that
>>>>these things did not occur in other units? Hardly. When I was posting as
>>>>troopervet, I received plenty of e-mail from other guys who praised me for
>>>>telling it the way it was. In fact I received as much, if not more, positive
>>>>e-mail than I did flames from awv. If it hadn't have been for their
>>>>encouragement, I would have quit. I find it hard to believe that other combat
>>>>vets came home and did not witness anything and I find it even harder to believe
>>>>that combat vets came home and did not hear of such things. Pass it off as
>>>>rumor if you like, but I found that guys in the field did not lie about such
>>>>things and their stories were often corraborated by others. Ten years later
>>>>while sitting at Joe's Bar & Grill after drinking a couple of six packs, the war
>>>>stories becomes more embellished, but not at the time it happened.
>>>>
>>>>dino

"Mat Beckman" wrote in message news:muf5$9q.ptu$14.h38afk@unc.edu...
> Patrick,
> What's the problem? Do you deny these things happen in war? Get real.
> This agrees with my history books and my university library books. Many
> American servicemen have given similar accounts (would you like a reference?).
> I believe Mr. Shultiz tells the truth. Pick just one statement you think
> is false. How about the first one.
>
> >>>I saw one enemy soldier beaten in the head with an entrenching tool until his
> >>>skull was crushed:
>
> Why don't you believe that? BFD, it was war.

Well Mat, I hate to tell you this but everything you read is not true. Here's an example.
dino (the one you call Mr. Shultiz) wrote the following:

>"Throwing away ammo was so common, we all assumed that was what happened to A Co,
>2/503rd in June, '67. They were told early in the morning that they were going
>back and we assumed they threw away half their ammo as was the usual practice.
>A Co. received severe casualties because they simply ran out of ammo. 76 KIAs.
>Now if you look at the 173rd web site, it will tell you that A Co ran into a
>well entrenched NVA army. The official enemy body count was 475 as told by the
>Company commander who beat it out on the first chopper because his own men
>wanted to kill him. Now, I carried bodies for 3 hours to a hastily made LZ and
>there were no holes, no bunkers, no spider holes. For the next three days we
>searched the entire area and found three enemy bodies. What happened to the
>other 472? The Company commander was never even down the Slope where the battle
>took place. He stayed at the top of the hill until we came and baled him out.
>The Company Commander had released the figure of 475 enemy killed before anyone
>had even found one enemy body.

>If anyone doubts this, they can contact the Reverend John Steer who was with A
>Co that day and wrote a book about it. The Reverend lives just about an hours
>drive away from where I live."

Now call me a skeptic but I didn't believe this story so I took dino up on his offer to
verify his story and called the Rev. Steer. Rev. Steer lost an arm in this battle and was
awarded the Silver Star. He was named by the first President Bush as a "Point of Light"
in his famous "Thousand Points of Light" metaphor so I'd believe him before I'd believe
dino. Here's what the Rev. Steer had to say:

"Dear Carl,
I am a little confused about who is saying what about what I said. I am a very busy
person and have a life separate from Hill 875 and the Slope at Dak To. I am extremely
proud to have served with what I consider to be the best combat unit that fought in
VietNam. Some of the quotes I have read apparently were written by someone who
has never been in combat. I would not be alive today if it were not for the mercy of
Jesus Christ and my brothers of the 173rd Airborne. Were there atrocities in War?
Of Course. I found one friend hanged, 2 buried upside down in the sand bar by the NVA.
Have we forgotten what the enemy did to us and to the South Vietnamese civilians.
I killed my share of the enemy, one of the first persons I remember killing was a young
NVA dragging a 51 Caliber machine gun and when I kicked off his hat it was about a
17 year old girl. I was shocked. But she was still the enemy. I never participated in
nor did I witness murder in Vietnam. Were there mistakes, of course . The only perfect
soldier I know is my Lord. Some of the things I have read, have totally shocked me.
For instance, it was said that it was normal to throw away half of your ammo. And that
was why we suffered 90% casualties on the slope on June 22, 1967. That's the most
ridiculous thing I have ever heard and a real slap in the face to those of us who fought
there, especially to all those brave men who died. Men fighting with multiple wounds,
fighting to the death to protect each other. I am proud to have known such men.
I have made comments that I didn't like the way we were ordered down a slimmy
slope into a NVA battalion ambush. So What! I didn't give the orders. If I have a
problem with the way our CO handles a combat situation, that has nothing to do
with the fighting ability and loyalty of the men in the 173rd, on the contrary, we obeyed
orders. Also, I read in some of the literature sent me that our CO was taken off the hill
on the first chopper. I don't know, but I highly doubt it. Was there talk of shooting him?
Yes, but not on the hill, back at Dak To. In the article I read it said there were not many
NVA bodies found. I was in many firefights and usually the dead enemy was dragged off
by his commrades. On several occassions, I have been on a detail digging up tens and
tens of dead NVA from ditches or shallow graves. To me these articles are stupid and
inaccurate. Let's not talk about a few isolated incidents and build them into something
totally blown out of proportion (fairytales). I want to remember the great legacy of proud
couragous young men serving their country well, the 173rd Airborne.
I will not waste my time any longer on this foolishness, if you want quotes from me,
watch the History Channel, called Vietnam, Frontline Soldiers. I am in the first segment
of the four part series on the Battles of Dak To.
Thanks, John Steer
Carl, relay this on to interested parties."

So Mat, you might want to include this message from the Rev. Steer with your history
books and university library books. (Note: don't push this book line too far. dino is against
Vietnam books. Or so he has claimed.)

Carl Hatchell

>
>Your history books and your library books were not written by anyone I
>witnessed in Vietnam.
>
>I believe in the Rules of Engagement as defined by United States
>Marine Corps Officers and their proper Chain of Command. If one of
>those officers pointed to me and said shoot that person. I would have
>shot them. I very seldom missed, so you could say someone would be
>laying on the ground, most certainly dead if I had clear shot because
>we never to my knowledge shot to impress or to wound, or to "stop"
>with fancy definitions of what that may mean. We shot to kill them
>dead. They were an enemy as defined by my government and chain of
>command. I did not act to maybe write a book someday, but to come
>home with all of my fellow Marines by my side. My Officers had the
>same belief I had as did all Marines in combat. Period.
>
>I do not dispute that. But as I say, I believed in my officers. If
>they would have been wrong, I would have paid the piper just like
>every Marine I know because we do not take disobeying our officers in
>a combat environment lightly. If someone doesn't believe that, that
>is their choice.
>

Jeeez, Paddy, that was good.
---
Alan

What is the statistical probability that Dino, as one individual,
would have been so "involved", so directly involved with what he
claims has transpired, that he has seen... but can not, will not,
provide specific dates, specific locations???
---Mac
*************** **********
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:00:24 -0700, Patrick t.
wrote:

>From: Patrick T. (p.t.hughes)
>Subject: Sybullisms-Criminal Behaviour
>This is the only article in this thread
>View: Original Format
>Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
>Date: 2000/07/23
>
>
>> Wrong again Dino. You've been repeatedly asked for proof and
>>every time you've waffled out.
>>
>> Prove this:
>>
>>In article <812a95$2kpc@drn.newsguy.com>, dino
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Gittinger
>>> I saw one enemy soldier beaten in the head with an entrenching tool until his
>>> skull was crushed: I saw a Vietnamese man beaten with a bamboo pole until he
>>> lay on the ground either dead or unconcious - I never saw him get up: I saw an
>>> enemy soldier who had willingly surrendered, beaten unconscious by the fists of
>>> an American soldier: I saw an enemy POW shot in the head 30 times with his own
>>>weapon: I saw an enemy soldier shot with a .45 cal. pistol until the magazine
>>>was empty: I saw an enemy soldier shot through the heart at point blank range
>>>with a M-16 rifle (less that two feet away): I saw 15 inocent civilians shot,
>>> while our company commander refused medical assistance: I witnessed an air
>>> assault on a village full of civilians which were seriously injured by the
>>> rockets of the gun ships (this was in a village and there was no enemy there):
>>> I witnessed soldiers who kept ears for souveniers: I witnessed an unprovoked
>>> firing on a civilian village by an entire platoon. I witnessed shooting an
>>> elderly woman as she was fleeing for safety: I was ordered to kill civilians by
>>> an officer: I witnessed a sergeant take a watch from an American KIA for his own
>>> use: I overheard the discussions of two soldiers who were bragging about how
>>> many wedding bands they had taken off American KIAs: Two soldiers told me in
>>> the field that they raped a woman as we swept through a village: I witnessed
>>> and participated in the killing of water buffalo, pigs, and chickens: I
>>> witnessed and participated in the burning of hootches: I witnessed the
>>> wholesale killing of wounded enemy soldiers following a firefight: I'll
>>> probably recall more after I finish typing this.
>>> There were plenty of more things that I did not personally witness but was told
>>>to me by guys that I knew very well and had never lied to me. They continue to
>>> this day to tell me the exact same stories. I believe them.
>>>
>>> These things all occured in three seperate Army units, so do I believe that
>>> these things did not occur in other units? Hardly. When I was posting as
>>> troopervet, I received plenty of e-mail from other guys who praised me for
>>> telling it the way it was. In fact I received as much, if not more, positive
>>> e-mail than I did flames from awv. If it hadn't have been for their
>>>encouragement, I would have quit. I find it hard to believe that other combat
>>> vets came home and did not witness anything and I find it even harder to believe
>>> that combat vets came home and did not hear of such things. Pass it off as
>>> rumor if you like, but I found that guys in the field did not lie about such
>>> things and their stories were often corraborated by others. Ten years later
>>> while sitting at Joe's Bar & Grill after drinking a couple of six packs, the war
>>> stories becomes more embellished, but not at the time it happened.
>>>
>>> dino
>>>ps We had made some sort of truce as I recall, but I see you cannot hold your
>>> tongue. I didn't think you to be an honorable man - thank you for proving me
>>> right.
>>
>> We're still awaiting your proof. My offer still stands to turn
>>it over to the USARPAC JAG.
>>
>> -T. H. Rau
>************************************************** **************************
>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following
>newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam)
>> In article <8232t7$1dg4@drn.newsguy.com>, dino says...
>> >
>> >In article , laidback@lava.net
>> >says...
>> >>
>> >> Send me the facts that you have, and I will personally turn them over
>> >>to the USARPAC JAG.
>> >
>> >Please be specific. I mentioned several things. Which particular ones do you
>> >want to know about? Furthermore, this will be private conversation between you
>> >and I. You must agree to not discuss it with anyone on this ng and never post
>> >anything that I write to you about this subject on this ng. If this is not
>> >acceptable, then do not e-mail me.
>> >
>> >> -T. H. Rau
>************************************************** **************************
>
>
>troopervet
>troopervet@yahoo.com

In article , Patrick t. says...
>
>On Tue, 26 Sep 2003 01:57:35 -0400, Mat Beckman
>wrote:
>
>Your history books and your library books were not written by anyone I
>witnessed in Vietnam.
>
>I believe in the Rules of Engagement as defined by United States
>Marine Corps Officers and their proper Chain of Command.

Which includes pointing a loaded pistol at an NCO's head and threatening to kill
him...

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...

In article , Carl Hatchell says...
>
>
>"Mat Beckman" wrote in message
>news:muf5$9q.ptu$14.h38afk@unc.edu...
>> Patrick,
>> What's the problem? Do you deny these things happen in war? Get real.
>> This agrees with my history books and my university library books. Many
>>American servicemen have given similar accounts (would you like a reference?).
>> I believe Mr. Shultiz tells the truth. Pick just one statement you think
>> is false. How about the first one.
>>
>>>>>I saw one enemy soldier beaten in the head with an entrenching tool until his
>> >>>skull was crushed:
>>
>> Why don't you believe that? BFD, it was war.
>
>Well Mat, I hate to tell you this but everything you read is not true. Here's an
>example.
>dino (the one you call Mr. Shultiz) wrote the following:
>
>>"Throwing away ammo was so common, we all assumed that was what happened to A
>>Co,
>>2/503rd in June, '67. They were told early in the morning that they were going
>>back and we assumed they threw away half their ammo as was the usual practice.
>>A Co. received severe casualties because they simply ran out of ammo. 76 KIAs.
>>Now if you look at the 173rd web site, it will tell you that A Co ran into a
>>well entrenched NVA army. The official enemy body count was 475 as told by the
>>Company commander who beat it out on the first chopper because his own men
>>wanted to kill him. Now, I carried bodies for 3 hours to a hastily made LZ and
>>there were no holes, no bunkers, no spider holes. For the next three days we
>>searched the entire area and found three enemy bodies. What happened to the
>>other 472? The Company commander was never even down the Slope where the battle
>>took place. He stayed at the top of the hill until we came and baled him out.
>>The Company Commander had released the figure of 475 enemy killed before anyone
>>had even found one enemy body.

Steer did not lose an arm in that battle. In fact he went AWOL for about 3 days
and got drunk. That was after he and others tooks items from the back packs of
their own dead. He not only told me that personally but he wrote about it in
detail in a book. I personally witnessed a sergeant from my own Company take a
watch off one of the KIAs and stuck it in his pocket.
As far as throwing stuff away, lets here what the 173rd Inspector General had to
say about throwing things away:

"There were weapons of every caliber, including machine guns. There were
explosives, field gear, clothing, bedding, for a long time. In fact, by our
estiate, more than $150,000 worth of equipment had been left behind as scrap by
the engineer unit, just sitting there waiting for anyone who wanted to take it."

The Inspector General of the 173rd went on to say that the "garbage" pile had
been there long enough for the VC to have taken anything that they wanted. This
also coinsides with my experience when a fire base moved out of its area. They
left behind truck loads of stuff. When I humped through the hills and came upon
one of our old camps, ammunition could always be found lying around the
foxholes.

This is what the 173rd Inspector General had to say about the unit:

"Pound for pound, the Brigade was garbage. Discipline was lax, the troops were
slovenly, disrespectful, and sluggish, mentally as well as physically."

Amen...

In article , Carl Hatchell says...
>
>
>"Mat Beckman" wrote in message
>news:muf5$9q.ptu$14.h38afk@unc.edu...
>> Patrick,
>> What's the problem? Do you deny these things happen in war? Get real.
>> This agrees with my history books and my university library books. Many
>>American servicemen have given similar accounts (would you like a reference?).
>> I believe Mr. Shultiz tells the truth. Pick just one statement you think
>> is false. How about the first one.
>>
>>>>>I saw one enemy soldier beaten in the head with an entrenching tool until his
>> >>>skull was crushed:
>>
>> Why don't you believe that? BFD, it was war.
>
>Well Mat, I hate to tell you this but everything you read is not true. Here's an
>example.
>dino (the one you call Mr. Shultiz) wrote the following:
>
>>"Throwing away ammo was so common, we all assumed that was what happened to A
>>Co,
>>2/503rd in June, '67. They were told early in the morning that they were going
>>back and we assumed they threw away half their ammo as was the usual practice.
>>A Co. received severe casualties because they simply ran out of ammo. 76 KIAs.
>>Now if you look at the 173rd web site, it will tell you that A Co ran into a
>>well entrenched NVA army. The official enemy body count was 475 as told by the
>>Company commander who beat it out on the first chopper because his own men
>>wanted to kill him. Now, I carried bodies for 3 hours to a hastily made LZ and
>>there were no holes, no bunkers, no spider holes. For the next three days we
>>searched the entire area and found three enemy bodies. What happened to the
>>other 472? The Company commander was never even down the Slope where the battle
>>took place. He stayed at the top of the hill until we came and baled him out.
>>The Company Commander had released the figure of 475 enemy killed before anyone
>>had even found one enemy body.
>
>>If anyone doubts this, they can contact the Reverend John Steer who was with A
>>Co that day and wrote a book about it. The Reverend lives just about an hours
>>drive away from where I live."
>
>Now call me a skeptic but I didn't believe this story so I took dino up on his
>offer to
>verify his story and called the Rev. Steer. Rev. Steer lost an arm in this
>battle and was
>awarded the Silver Star. He was named by the first President Bush as a "Point of
>Light"
>in his famous "Thousand Points of Light" metaphor so I'd believe him before I'd
>believe
>dino. Here's what the Rev. Steer had to say:
>
>"Dear Carl,
>I am a little confused about who is saying what about what I said. I am a very
>busy
>person and have a life separate from Hill 875 and the Slope at Dak To. I am
>extremely
>proud to have served with what I consider to be the best combat unit that fought
>in
>VietNam. Some of the quotes I have read apparently were written by someone who
>has never been in combat. I would not be alive today if it were not for the
>mercy of
>Jesus Christ and my brothers of the 173rd Airborne. Were there atrocities in
>War?
>Of Course. I found one friend hanged, 2 buried upside down in the sand bar by
>the NVA.
>Have we forgotten what the enemy did to us and to the South Vietnamese
>civilians.
>I killed my share of the enemy, one of the first persons I remember killing was
>a young
>NVA dragging a 51 Caliber machine gun and when I kicked off his hat it was about
>a
>17 year old girl. I was shocked. But she was still the enemy. I never
>participated in
>nor did I witness murder in Vietnam. Were there mistakes, of course . The only
>perfect
>soldier I know is my Lord. Some of the things I have read, have totally shocked
>me.
>For instance, it was said that it was normal to throw away half of your ammo.
>And that
>was why we suffered 90% casualties on the slope on June 22, 1967. That's the
>most
>ridiculous thing I have ever heard and a real slap in the face to those of us
>who fought
>there, especially to all those brave men who died. Men fighting with multiple
>wounds,
>fighting to the death to protect each other. I am proud to have known such men.
>I have made comments that I didn't like the way we were ordered down a slimmy
>slope into a NVA battalion ambush. So What! I didn't give the orders. If I
>have a
>problem with the way our CO handles a combat situation, that has nothing to do
>with the fighting ability and loyalty of the men in the 173rd, on the contrary,
>we obeyed
>orders. Also, I read in some of the literature sent me that our CO was taken
>off the hill
>on the first chopper. I don't know, but I highly doubt it. Was there talk of
>shooting him?
>Yes, but not on the hill, back at Dak To. In the article I read it said there
>were not many
>NVA bodies found. I was in many firefights and usually the dead enemy was
>dragged off
>by his commrades. On several occassions, I have been on a detail digging up
>tens and
>tens of dead NVA from ditches or shallow graves. To me these articles are
>stupid and
>inaccurate. Let's not talk about a few isolated incidents and build them into
>something
>totally blown out of proportion (fairytales). I want to remember the great
>legacy of proud
>couragous young men serving their country well, the 173rd Airborne.
>I will not waste my time any longer on this foolishness, if you want quotes from
>me,
>watch the History Channel, called Vietnam, Frontline Soldiers. I am in the
>first segment
>of the four part series on the Battles of Dak To.
> Thanks, John Steer
>Carl, relay this on to interested parties."

The above is supposedly a quote from John Steer. The following are quotes from
John Steer's book which he had published. Please note the difference between
what Steer supposedly wrote to Carl and what his book says:

"Boy, did we lose lieutenants. We just couldn't keep them alive. They were
dumb."

"One of the guys who dug in with me started crying. Everytime he'd start
crying, they'd open up on us with automatic weapons. I stuck my knife in his
ribs and said, 'I'm not getting killed for you. If you cry again I'm going to
kill you because every time that you start crying the gooks open up on us.' I
really meant it. I would have killed him that instant."

"I don't even care to mention him because it was because of him we got shot up."

"To this day, I don't know what I would do if I met this guy again."

"Then it was like every man for himself."

"If I had felt better I would have killed him then and there."

"The men would set up the Vietnamese bodies all around and stick cigarettes into
their mouths." "I felt crazy. Crazy. I thought it was funny how these dead
gooks were all over." "Somebody had carved the 173rd Airborne initials on one
of the gook’s forehead. I got up and stuck a cigarette I had lit up in a dead
gook’s lips." "Routine, you know."

"From time to time we’d be smoking pot..." "Our madness and devil-take-care
attitude seemed to increase."

"It was every man for himself."

"One of the men shouted, ‘Man, I can’t go on. I cannot go another step. I’m
worn-out.’ We were just pushed to go, go, go, and most of us just felt like
that. So we left him there. I don’t know if he ever caught up with us or not.
If he didn’t the Vietnamese killed him."

"George came by and stepped on my air mattress. I screamed: ‘If you step on my
air mattress again, I’ll kill you.’ I was as serious as I could be."

"We had just finished making camp when some young boys came toward camp. They
were only about thirteen or fourteen years old. They had their old rifles over
their heads hollering, 'Choo Hoi,' which means ‘I give up’." "We weren’t
supposed to take any prisoners. I didn’t have to shoot them - not that I
wouldn’t have." "Suddenly I heard shots ring out and those kids fell like rag
dolls." "...I rationalized they were probably planning on killing us. After
all, General Sherman did say, ‘War is hell.’"

Yup... I was in the same battalion as John Steer was and I was there during the
same time. He is absolutely correct! And all of the guys who were ever in the
infantry know that... The guys on AWV now deny that such things happened just
as John Steer apparently now denies that it happened... but regardless of the
bull being slung on this ng, too many personal accounts have been written to
even attempt to discount that such was the life of the infantryman in Vietnam...

Carl Hatchell spent his entire tour in Vietnam on a non-motorized barge anchored
off-shore...

"Alligator Al" wrote in message
news:bl1i1h017bf@drn.newsguy.com...
>
> This is what the 173rd Inspector General had to say about the unit:
>
> "Pound for pound, the Brigade was garbage. Discipline was lax, the troops
were
> slovenly, disrespectful, and sluggish, mentally as well as physically."
>
> Amen...
>

This from the puke that "proudly" displays his association with the 173rd on
his web site? I would imagine the 173rd materially improved when you were
bounced to another unit.

It is fascinating to watch such a self-destructive person giggle when he is
cutting off his own fingers and toes.

--
Dave
(The Other)

Knock off the nyck stuff. The 3 Stooges Plumbing
Co. is my favorite Movie of all time.

"Alligator Al" wrote in message news:bl1gr201377@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article , Patrick t. says...
> >
> >On Tue, 26 Sep 2003 01:57:35 -0400, Mat Beckman
> >wrote:
> >
> >Your history books and your library books were not written by anyone I
> >witnessed in Vietnam.
> >
> >I believe in the Rules of Engagement as defined by United States
> >Marine Corps Officers and their proper Chain of Command.
>
> Which includes pointing a loaded pistol at an NCO's head and threatening to kill
> him...
>
> Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...
>