thomandpam@yahoo.com.au (Thom) wrote in message news:
[snip]
> >
> >Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! What a laugh, indeed.
>
> yes the USA government is a joke under Bush
Who in the HELL is talking about The Shrub?
> >>
> >> NFL? What did the National Football League have to do with the war?
> >
> >The National Liberation Front, you freak.
>
> Sorry but not being a Tory republican I don't keep up on things like
> commie buzzwords or Clinton's penis. I have better things to worry
> about.
Nah—Let's get it right for the record: I'm a TORN Republican, ever
since Reagan retired. As for Clinton's penis—he can do what ever he
wants with it now that he's no longer on Company Time.
> >One of the signatories of
> >the 1973 Peace Accords (Which Hanoi violated as soon as it possibly
> >could, BTW--something you seem reluctant to mention).
>
> So complain to the UN. Unlike Bush and his gang I was in Viet Nam, I
> did my bit, they didn't. Did you?
>
Who the Hell is talking about Bush?
And sorry, too young by a couple of years. Thanks for your service to
my country.
> >> :-)
> >> >
> >> >Uncle Ho was backed by the Soviets and the PRC.
> >>
> >> First of all you need to spell out PRC because most people have no
> >> idea what it means, and of course the Soviets backed Ho. When we
> >> double crossed him and gave Indochina back to the French to bribe them
> >> into the UN he went to who ever would help him.
> >
> >Minh was a Communist as early as 1928, you myopic little apologist. In
> >WWII we thought we could ally with the Communists. We were wrong--so
> >sue us.
>
> And what kind was he in 1928? Was he a Tito style communist, a Castro
> type, a Moa type, a lenin type, a Stalinist or what. Communist says
> nothing because there were so many different types.
A budding Stalinist in 1928, as noted elsewhere in the thread.
And none of those listed were ever likely to ally with the US for very
long. Which was the point. That we tried to during WWII just shows how
"fuzzy-headed" it is to think of Communist Regimes as anything but
what they are—and what terrible consequences come from not
understanding what communism is.
> >
> >55,000 Soviet "Military Advisors" were actually operating air defenses
> >and flying the Migs that shot down American and ARVN pilots.
>
> SO? In WW2 there was the Eagle Sqd and the Flying Tigers. There were
> also yanks in Canadian planes before DEC 7th. Why is it right for us
> and not for them???? Also please tell me about these pilos operating
> over South Viet Nam and shooting down South Vietnamese planes?
> >
Look, if Americans made up 75% of the British Forces in N. Africa and
Asia, SOMEBODY, starting with Hitler, would have called us out on it.
That's A LOT different than the Lafayette Escadrille.
Well that's what China did for N. Vietnam, and to this day no one says
much about it.
George Magazine even nominated Giap as greatest military genius of the
20th Century—as if he had HAD any victories once America entered the
war—and as if he wasn't using the vast assets of Kosygin and Mao to
pretend he hadn't really destroyed what was left of his own army
before 1968.
> >370,000 PRC soldiers masqueraded as the NVA. This is confirmed from
> >documents recently released by China.
>
> So? There were also all kinds of Nationalities serving in the Waffen
> SS. If French fought with the WSS on the Russian front does that make
> DeGaul a Nazi???
No, but it WOULD make Vichy one. Which he was according to the
definition of "accomplice" and "accessory."
German soldiers also fought in the Revolutionary
> war. Does that make Jefferson a crout???
> >
Ummm. Didn't the Hessians fight against Jefferson's side?
> >And look; if they don't know what PRC stands for, they got no business
> >in this conversation, anyway.
>
> The issue is that its all a straw man. You know nothing about the
> people of the region or their history. You don't understand the fact
> they were at war for 300 years!
>
The Sunnis and Shiites have been at war at least three times that long
(and Islam VS the Jews and Islam VS the West is ancient too). Does
that mean none of us understand IT NEEDS TO END? Despite the cultural
sensibilities of the natives?
> Ho saw at last a free Viet Nam and the US gave it back to the French
> to bribe them into the UN.
> >>
> >> >Had there been AN
> >> >"election"?it would have certainly been the LAST election.
> >>
> >> Your proof of this is? Even Viet Nam today has regular elections and
> >> theres at least 5 parties that I can think of. I believe I posted
> >> their names a while back.
> >
> >This is simply delusional. While there ARE, in fact, regular general
> >elections, there is only ONE political party:
>
> Excuse me unenlightened one, I have posted no less than 6 on this news
> group (alt.politics.bush) and it appears I have to do it again. I'll
> cut back a bit and just give you the bigger ones
Alt dot Politics dot Bush ‘splains a lot.
>
> Dang Cong San Viet Nam [Communist Party of Vietnam]
> Lien Dang Cach Mang Vietnam [Coalition of Vietnamese National
> Parties (CVNP)]
> Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang (VNQDD) [Vietnamese
> National Party]
> Viet Nam Workers' party (not a communist party)
And how many of these "parties" hold any offices in the Vietnamese
Government?
No need, I'll answer: Only The Communist Party of Vietnam.
You know, towards the end, the Soviets had to allow other parties to
exist (it made it convenient when they were planning nightly raiding
parties for the KGB)
>
> >The CPV (The Communist
> >Party of Vietnam. It's headed by Strong Man General Secretary Nong Duc
> >Manh.
>
> So? We have a strong man named Bush trying to control us? I see no
> difference.
WTF does The Shrub have to do with anything?
In the United States, the Executive serves at the whim of his
constituents. The President of the Unites States is my servant, and
yours, if you're a citizen here. It can't be any other way.
Now, if you are Elian Gonzales, or a foreign terrorist (since 2001),
the POTUS is a strong man—to you and I, he can be fired any time we
decide.
> >>
> >> >Unless you
> >> >think the Il Duce of Hanoi had in mind some sort of benevolent, free
> >> >republic where the proletariat and the bourgeoisie would live side by
> >> >side in harmony?
> >>
> >> well we don't have that here either do we. Ho's Viet Nam is a typical
> >> Asian government, no different than it was under the empress Nam
> >> Phuong, emperors Thŕnh Thá'i et Duy Tân or the last dynesty of the
> >> (Chi D). Nguyens before the war. You also leave out the fact that
> >> most of the Hue emperors did not control all of the north so you had a
> >> residual issue left over there when the country was divided in half.
> >>
> >> You really need to learn more about Viet Nam before tou go making
> >> silly statments like that.
> >>
> >I'm not sure I'm the one who needs to learn about Vietnam, Thom.
>
> I learned more than Bush did in the service.
WTF are you talking about THAT for??!!!
> oppps sorry, Bush dodged
> the war didn't he. And as far as knowing the country, I live and work
> (when I choose to) in Australia and with my duel passport I can be in
> Saigon in just a few hours and have been. First time was an amazing
> surprise!! Skyscrapers, modern 5-star hotels etc etc.
Visiting a jail ain't the same as living in one, Cochise. North Korea
has skyscrapers. Some places.
> >
> >"The Vietnamese authorities have violated human rights on a frequent,
> >continuous, and systematic basis.
>
> and we haven't? We murdered 20 million native Americans, put them in
> goologs called reservations with crooked agents in charge, kept slaves
> for 300 years and have descriminated against blacks and hispanics for
> hw long???
>
So, you're saying it's okay for the Vietnamese Fascists to suppress
their people with their security police and "judicial system?"
Look, I used to wet my bed when I was 6. You gonna make me feel guilty
about it NOW?
I learned. And so did "we."
We were talking NOW.
> >Thanks to the opening [to the
> >outside world] and better information, the collective knowledge of
> >Vietnamese people has been raised considerably. That automatically
> >leads to more and stronger voices demanding freedom, democracy,
> >religious rights,
>
> No problem with religion in VN, temples and churches are open.
Why don't you go tell Nguyen Vu Binh it's all fine there. I'm sure
they'd let a visiting business man go talk to him in jail.
>
> >and so forth. Rising alongside that development is
> >the government's oppression, resorting to all kinds of sophisticated
> >and treacherous tactics.
>
> Like invading Iraq? Opps, that was Bush.
Oops—we were talking about Vietnam.
>
> >Such oppression violates the people's
> >fundamental rights which are defined in the constitution itself and in
> >various covenants on human rights signed by the Vietnamese government.
> >In recent years, given the upsurge of more democratic voices and their
> >ability to link up, the violation of fundamental human rights have
> >increased both in severity and brazenness. This trend is expected to
> >continue in the future. "
>
> > --- July 23, 2002 Testimony of Nguyen Vu Binh (who, himself, is now
> >under arrest in Vietnam and awaiting what Human Rights Watch
> >characterizes as a summary trial that will last only a few hours and
> >whose outcome is almost always predetermined by Vietnamese
> >Authorities--Binh faces 20 to Life, at LEAST)
>
> Look for every example you can give me I can give you more. Its
> called living in glass house syndrome.
˙ >
What fucking GLASS HOUSE? You wanna compare the institution of slavery
in this country to the systematic oppression of the citizenry in
Vietnam? Fine.
But what you seem to forget is that I-we-The United States doesn't
fucking APPROVE of what happened here before 1861. In fact it fielded
an army of 2 million men to fight against it. 600,000 died while "we"
were ending it.
"We" earned the right to disapprove of slavery here or anywhere else
in the world we find it.
Just because we've had the same problems dudint make ANY of it right,
or tolerable. In truth, it makes it less so—since we know better than
most it don't have to be that way.
> >
> >Among lots and lots of other documentary evidence that flys in the
> >face of your efforts to mischaracterize this typical Communist regime
> >(Asian or otherwise).
>
> Sorry but communism died 14 years ago. Check a map, no USSR...all
> gone!
˙ >
Are you for real? What of Cuba? North Korea? The PRC? Etc? Even if you
wanna pretend Vietnam is not a communist state, that still leaves
quite a few people living in Communism.
> >This is just the most recent.
>
> Yes a recent map is much better. Plus if you want to look at humna
> rights problems why do you not talk about right wing capitalist BURMA
> or Indonesia!!! How many Aechens or Timorese have the right wing
> capitalist indonesians murdered? And now we have the West Papua
> problem? No commies causing that little mess.
Who the fuck wants to talk about Burma? We were discussing Vietnam
until you felt your arguments crumbling. Oppression is the same, no
matter what the regime—this is granted. But you have, in every post
I've read of yours so far, attempted to paint some sort of glowing
picture of Vietnam today, and have, at every opportunity, attempted to
excuse any abuses their guilty of by claiming I have no understanding
of their culture or history.
Fuck that. There are no valid cultural excuses for oppression. That's
what "we" told those slaveholders in Alabama about 140 years ago (who
claimed exactly what you're claiming here)—and that's what I'm telling
the Vietnamese Communists TODAY. And you, too.
---
Art